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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Why does it seem windsurfing is fading away |
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| steve1 wrote: | | it may make more sense to have fewer board makes and models. That way each company's development budget would go towards better development of fewer boards - each with a broader range. The same goes for sails. |
The recent board trend focused on broader range has, IMO and that of Boards Magazine, taken a significant toll from other performance factors. If I had to rely only on those broad-range stubbies, as they're called, I'd be very disappointed. That trend has certainly diminished my interest in and purchases of new boards. |
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cgoudie1
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2599
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Amen brother Fick. I'm more of a finesse guy myself, but I occasionally
get a vision of you with a steam roller ;*)
-Craig
| isobars wrote: | My relevant point, buried in the details I've skipped, is that there are often ways around abusive job demands. "Bulldozing" must be reserved for extreme circumstances, but tiptoeing, using our heads to get the job done despite bad bosses, bartering, using advantageous laws, etc. will go a long ways towards relieving workplace abuse. There's a whole chasm between bulldozing and finesse.
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Sailboarder wrote: | | The more I think about it, the more I feel that windsurfing is fading because it is an individual sport. It is easy to do it alone. But humans are social beasts... I hear some kiters like the fact that they have to help each other |
Kiting's emphasis on sailing buddies was near the top of my Cons list when I considered and rejected that sport. Who wants to schedule their days or evenings off, their trips, their sessions, their meal and bathroom breaks, their sleep, etc. around someone else's schedule? If WSing required that, I'd have dropped it decades ago. It's bad enough that it requires wind and water; complicating it by tethering it to other people's schedules would ruin it for many of us. Besides, the vast majority of windy days have plenty of lulls for socialization. I LOVE the fact that WSing can be pursued as an individual sport; that lets me WS more. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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I can recall offhand only a couple of times I've had to use a steamroller on my bosses. One was a written notification to my CO that if he ever tried to drag me into his criminal misuse of project funds, I'd report him. The other was telling another CO I'd go WAY over his head if he carried out his intent to ruin a military hero's career over the CO's misunderstanding. Some things are worth more than a career, and finesse doesn't always work.
| cgoudie1 wrote: | I'm more of a finesse guy myself, but I occasionally
get a vision of you with a steam roller ;*) |
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steve1
Joined: 30 Apr 1998
Posts: 239
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| spennie wrote: | RE: Too many products
Maui Sails has 13 different types of sails right now, Neilpryde has 15. Not making this up. Who in the world would ever need 15 different types of sail? I would guess they're trying to catch every little niche, like having 4 different wave sails. Philip Soltysiak was 4th in the world in Freestyle on Sailworks wave sails, last time I looked. NP has wave sails and X-over sails, WHY?
Somebody has to decide how many of each type to make, and when they go over they have to dump them off at reduced prices. Not to mention design & production costs, and advertising. Is all this making the sport better or less expensive? You decide. |
Absolutely spot on - and that's not counting the sizes available. That's 13-15 sail ranges in at least 5 differnt sizes.
In terms of making the sport attractive again I cant see any justification for more than 4 sail types Beginner, Slalom, Wave and Race and probably no more that 4-5 sizes in each range. Oh and can we please just call them what they are. Sail branding has become some kind of inside joke. WTF is a Solar or a H2 and why would I choose one over the other? It might seem kind of cool that those of us on the inside know all this stuff - but its a hell of a turn off for newbies.
I have had a couple of buddies recently show interest in windsurfing only to give up when faced with the bewildering choices of kit - and the investment that's supposedly needed to cover the range of possibilities. Sails retailing for $600-700 and boards retailing for $1500-2000 is just silly - and then we are expected to have 3 boards and 7 sails for a quiver.
For the first 10 years of my 30 years in this sport I was totally OK with 1 long and 1 short board, 2 masts, 3 sails and 1 boom. For the first 5 years - in retrospect I was probably even happier (and certainly had more time on the water) with 1 long board, 1 mast, 1 boom and 2 sails. |
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WutUpWitU
Joined: 21 May 2000
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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i agree wit a lot of what has been offered here, it comes down to free time, expense and access. and long boards would help at some level but question; if you could only lightwind longboard how long would you have kept up with the sport?
and free time and access is interesting. the conditions are really good only rarely(yes, some places more than others) which is part of what makes the good days SO good, to have everything come together is amazingly unlikely yet it happens more than you would expect if you are willing to make it happen but it detracts from the novice having fun quickly, learning quickly and willing to spend the time and money for a poor chance of payback in fun.
PS as a windsurfer for 25+ years and a kiter for 6 who mostly windsurfs with a little kiting in the gorge and mostly kites with a little windsurfing in baja , if you cannot kite alone ( or with friends) you can not kite, it is not hard to self launch safely almost anywhere in a short time....just sayin |
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DanWeiss
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2296
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| steve1 wrote: | | spennie wrote: | RE: Too many products
Maui Sails has 13 different types of sails right now, Neilpryde has 15. Not making this up. Who in the world would ever need 15 different types of sail? I would guess they're trying to catch every little niche, like having 4 different wave sails. Philip Soltysiak was 4th in the world in Freestyle on Sailworks wave sails, last time I looked. NP has wave sails and X-over sails, WHY?
Somebody has to decide how many of each type to make, and when they go over they have to dump them off at reduced prices. Not to mention design & production costs, and advertising. Is all this making the sport better or less expensive? You decide. |
Absolutely spot on - and that's not counting the sizes available. That's 13-15 sail ranges in at least 5 differnt sizes.
In terms of making the sport attractive again I cant see any justification for more than 4 sail types Beginner, Slalom, Wave and Race and probably no more that 4-5 sizes in each range. Oh and can we please just call them what they are. Sail branding has become some kind of inside joke. WTF is a Solar or a H2 and why would I choose one over the other? It might seem kind of cool that those of us on the inside know all this stuff - but its a hell of a turn off for newbies.
I have had a couple of buddies recently show interest in windsurfing only to give up when faced with the bewildering choices of kit - and the investment that's supposedly needed to cover the range of possibilities. Sails retailing for $600-700 and boards retailing for $1500-2000 is just silly - and then we are expected to have 3 boards and 7 sails for a quiver.
For the first 10 years of my 30 years in this sport I was totally OK with 1 long and 1 short board, 2 masts, 3 sails and 1 boom. For the first 5 years - in retrospect I was probably even happier (and certainly had more time on the water) with 1 long board, 1 mast, 1 boom and 2 sails. |
A contrary thought, perhaps: Sail brands only make what they think people will buy. Maui Sails is at least vocal about responding to consumer complaints and desires, though I bet every brand listens hard. Sailworks might offer only 4 adult sail lines, but I bet Bruce often thinks about splitting the market into another line. In fact, he did when producing the Hucker a few years ago. I'm not sure how much international distribution Sailworks has, but brands like NP and MS and Gaastra make sails for tastes other than the most common in the USA. MS came out with a narrow luff cam sail as a result of complaints about uphauling a the Titan when full of water and considering who was buying the Titan it makes sense as it satisfied a need. Whether it makes money remains unknown.
I think NP is over the top but, again, they sell huge volume all over the world to people who like very different things. I prefer wave sails without 100% xply because I generally prefer the feel and don't sail above a coral reef or barnacle-covered rock reef. Others won't buy a non-xply sail even for flat water. In the end, splitting the market based on market preferences makes great sense if plans go well. What is the downside to the consumer?
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w8n4wind
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 278
Location: canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| DanWeiss wrote: |
What is the downside to the consumer? |
''Psychologist Barry Schwartz takes aim at a central tenet of western societies: freedom of choice. In Schwartz's estimation, choice has made us not freer but more paralyzed, not happier but more dissatisfied.''
http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
as well as cost.
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steve1
Joined: 30 Apr 1998
Posts: 239
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| w8n4wind wrote: | | DanWeiss wrote: |
What is the downside to the consumer? |
''Psychologist Barry Schwartz takes aim at a central tenet of western societies: freedom of choice. In Schwartz's estimation, choice has made us not freer but more paralyzed, not happier but more dissatisfied.''
http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
as well as cost. |
Yes I have been following this. Best Buy are suffering declining sales and the data see to indicate that confusion of choice is at least partly to blame. From my own experience I have lost count of the number of times I have walked into Best Buy thinking I knew exactly what I wanted only to walk out frustrated and empty handed because of the confusion of overlapping choices. I am convinced that we are seeing the same thing in Windsurfing.
Its one thing to listen to customers and to be responsive but what we have now is a confusion of choice - paralysis by analysis is the result. My buddies were turned off windsurfing by their unwillingness to wade through the endless decisions they were expected to make to choose sails and boards.
If the cacophony of choices was working and the annual "advances" are so stellar - why are we all not sailing new kit? |
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cgoudie1
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2599
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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I occasionally see this type of paralysis in a different way. Ever watched
a Canadian with 8 sails sized in .2M increments trying to decide on which
sail to rig at Doug's Beach. ;*)
-Craig
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